No other lobby group carries as much clout at Westminster as the Conservative Friends of Israel (CFI). An astonishing 80% of Tory MPs, including many Cabinet ministers, are members of it. Which is why the CFI can call, “almost at will”, upon the PM, Chancellor of the Exchequer and Foreign Secretary. The Palestinians, by contrast, would be lucky to get a single Tory MP for one of their events. What’s more, the sponsors of CFI play a crucial role in funding both Tory MPs and the party as a whole. All of which helps explain the often less than even-handed nature of Israel-related Tory policies. Though formally in favour of a two-state solution, they still refused to back the recent Palestinian bid for enhanced recognition at the UN. Worse, they have been culpably half-hearted in their criticisms of Israel’s plans for new settlements, plans likely to kill off all hope of a Palestinian state and with it any prospect of peace in the Middle East. Let the CFI take note: true friends of Israel would speak out about the suicidal danger of following this disastrous policy. (Peter Oborne, Daily Telegraph, not known as a lefty publication).
Had Epicureans been in charge of Israel there would now be peace in the region, the economies of both Israeli and Palestinian communities would be thriving, people would be migrating to the region seeking jobs and good government, and the future of Israel would have been assured. As it is, outsiders are increasingly wondering if Israel will exist by the middle of this century. Don’t blame anti-semitism this time. Self-destruction is in full swing.
Islamic Jew hatred goes way back to the “prophet” Muhammad, who waged genocide against Jewish tribes. Hence Islam is steeped in anti-semitism and a Muslim country will be, on average, deeply anti-Semitic. The Koran is littered with anti-semitism, even more so than Mein Kampf as explained in this video:
A Rational Study of Radical Islam, by Dr. Bill Warner
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9sYgqRtZGg
I like Epicurus but I can’t imagine he would have his head buried in the sand.
Guess you must be right. It has to be someone else’s fault.
The point is: it doesn’t matter what concessions Israel makes if the majority of Muslims (as directed by their religion) want to wipe Jews off the face of the earth. There will never be peace between Jews and Muslims because of the example of Muhammad:
“As the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) was about to breathe his last, he drew his sheet upon his face and when he felt uneasy, he uncovered his face and said in that very state: Let there be curse upon the Jews and the Christians…”
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/06/islamic-tradition-on-this-day-in-632-muhammad-died-while-cursing-the-jews-and-christians.html
“One of the last things that the Messenger of Allah… said was, ‘May Allah fight the Jews and the Christians… Two deens [religions] shall not co-exist in the land of the Arabs.'”
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/08/james-m-arlandson-freedom-of-religion-in-early-islam.html#_No_Two_Religions
Ideas have consequences, and ignoring them doesn’t help.
The truth of Israel’s current political situation doesn’t emerge from cherry-picking theological quotes from any religious texts, any time. That’s a propaganda game.
Instead of playing with the ancient books, look at the soldiers in our lifetimes: Auschwitz wasn’t perpetrated by putative “Islamic Jew haters” of a thousand years ago but by “Christian” nations of the West in our lifetimes.
Real military history doesn’t lie. Three years after the end of WWII Israel, benefitting from British policies in Palestine in the late 1930s, executed rapid military conquests of more than 500 weakly defended (if at all) Palestinian villages. Thus has run the road from the Nakba, through the war of 1967, to the present occupation of the West Bank.
Fifty thousand Jews had lived reasonably peaceably in Palestine (mostly in towns) alongside Arabs (mostly farmers), for at least a century before the the militant Zionists of the Irgun and its cohort started their terrorist activities in the name of religion and a “homeland” that quickly became a State (I used to have neighbors whose family were murdered in the famous Shepherd’s Hotel terrorist attack, and you talk about Moslems!).
Americans know little about Palestine or its history – they are not allowed to unless they are prepared to delve. The media is cowed. Nor do they understand how the Arab world has been exploited and pushed around by the West and by dictators supported by the West. You don”t hear about those things (we are so great, so powerful, so perfect, aren’t we?) It’s amazing that more people have not join jihad, give dictatorship, invasion,massive unemployment and maladministration. So much for writings 1400 years old.
Epicurus would have seen the facts and condemned anyone sheltering behind religion to satisfy greed and fomenting sectarian hatred, whoever they are.
And note that a significant proportion of Israelis don’t agree that Israel should even be a State. What is happening in that part of the world has absolutely nothing to do with Mohammed, but has to do with a land-grab. Before Christmas I gave money to a Jewish organization demanding peace and a deal with the Arabs. In other words rational people. You can’t reason with extremists, but the organization is doing its best to get over the message that
constant provocation and prevarication is not in the interest of Jews anywhere in the world.
The violence of the Koran and Muhammad is not irrelevant. It is still taught today in the Muslim world. Jihad is still part of Islamic doctrine.
Walid Shoebat – Ex-Terrorist explains the real motivations behind the Palestinian struggle
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjXifsACiHA#t=310s
Robert Spencer, Pure Islam:
“… all of the schools that are considered orthodox teach, as part of the obligation of the Muslim community, warfare against and the subjugation of unbelievers.”
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2007/11/pure-islam-and-michael-van-der-galien.html
After the huge military expansion of the moslem faith in the 7th/8th Century Moslems lived reasonably peacefully. Indeed, they were known, not for killing every non-believer in sight, but for much more tolerance than the Christians ever showed. The Turks created a huge empire, but aside from that we heard little from them until the late 19th Century. The Moslem lands were invaded, partitioned and colonized by the French, British, Dutch and Italians, sometimes brutally, and were fought over during the 2nd World War in particular. Think India, Morocco, Indonesia, the list is long.
Then the U.S got involved, invading Iraq and then Afghanistan, propping up vicious dictators who robbed their citizens and denied democracy, and , in the case of the Saudis, encouraged the Wahabists, one of the worst of the anti-diluvian religionists. Nothing the West has done in 150 years in Moslem lands reflects any credit on it. Then came the zionists, offered a “homeland” (not a political country) of their own, and after 60 years are still appropriating land that is not theirs and hasn’t been for 2000 years. On top of all this you have huge unemployment and nothing much to look forward to. We are driving Yemenis and Pakistanis into the arms of extremists as we speak. As for Afghanistan ……..
I hold no brief for killers and assassins, for Al Queda or any other gang of violent, religious nuts and racists (this is the Epicurean blog, and for Epicureans religion is the triumph of hope over common sense), but given the huge world population of Moslems it is surprising they haven’t been more militant. Yes, there are schools that teach jihad (ugh!), but relative to the millions of moslems they are are relatively small in number, and if they are growing we (the West) have a certain responsibility for it. You won’t hear this from the principal US media, of course. The war machine must be fed.
A -You glossed over the first wave of Islamic expansion. What motivation would propel Muslims to expand so rapidly? The example of Muhammad the original terrorist, of course, and the lure of martyrdom for Allah. It’s hypocritical to condemn Western colonialism whilst glossing over Islamic colonisation. Do the conquered usually welcome their conquerors? No.
B – There were two great waves of Islamic jihad, not one: the Arabs and the Turks:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZaQvgqlp4M
Islamic Aggression ( Jihad )
C – There has, nonetheless, been ongoing battles on Islam’s “bloody borders” throughout history.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_Qpy0mXg8Y#t=654s
Dr Bill Warner Exposes Islamic History
D – The entire Western world is thoroughly sick on colonial style interventions. They will happily leave the Muslim world alone, but that won’t stop Muslim terrorists now that fundamentalism has been stoked.
E – Muslims are “schizophrenic” i.e the have their human nature in conflict with Islamic doctrine (“Fighting is ordained for you, though you dislike it” – Koran 2:216). The history of Islam is a pendulum swinging between the two personalities. We are currently in a swing back to jihadist fundamentalism.
F – Obama fought on the side of Libyan rebels to overthrow Gaddafi. And how did those Libyans repay him? They murdered 4 Americans consulate staff. Obama thought the Libyans would love him. But jihad is a timeless doctrine.
Yes the West would be better off if we left Islam the hell alone, but you can’t ignore the Islamic doctrine of jihad, because it is always a potential motivator of Muslims.
We seem to be having fun talking past one another! You see Mohammed behind most of the violence in the world and a huge plot against us by moslems everywhere. I see a powerful military- industrial complex that has to have an enemy: the Soviet Union, Saddam Hussein, illicit drugs, al Queda, and now Iran. They have to have a “war” to stoke profits and military careers, even though we are not very good at winning the wars, but nobody dare say so. The rumor is that an attack on Iran is being planned for the middle of this year! Crazy? You bet.
The US is over-spending like crazy, but the usual suspects would rather deprive poor and old people of healthcare than the military of its latest war (almost certain to be lost if it is against Iran!).
I’m sure the Islam haters genuinely fear Islamic jihad, but I would ask you to stop and think what is motivating some of the principal actors and who is paying them. We are all subject to a torrent of well-financed propaganda. I trust none of it. As far as I am concerned mass Islamic jihad is unlikely, the current low level activities of militant Islamists is more an irritant than anything, and the response to 9/11 was understandable but totally over the top. Invade Afghanistan? Every knowledgable person said don’t do it. But they did it. Why? They must have known some of the history at least, but it has been a bonanza for “homeland security” and the armed forces. I don’t for a moment doubt your genuine concerns, and respect your opinion.
But I think you may have the problem back to front.
In any case I have enjoyed the debate, which we have conducted with courtesy. Better get on with ! Nice to discuss with you.